podcast

Okay. Hi everybody. Thanks for joining me today. Welcome to the podcast. We're gonna talk to today about a topic, which is a big anxiety source for a lot of people. It's a difficult topic for me to talk about. It's gonna involve me being a little vulnerable today, telling some personal stories, but I wanted to talk to you about the topic of jealousy because it is a really big source of anxiety for a lot of people and if we don't understand it and know how to regulate and regulate it and to process it, it can really kind of boss our lives around and make us miserable. And so I wanted to talk first of all about, kind of my background with this, the issues that I've had with it, and also what I have done to be able to overcome it. And process it and move beyond it in a sense.
Jealousy can show up in many different aspects of our lives, right? We can have sibling jealousy. Some of my first, well, I guess my first memory with jealousy had to do with my little brother. For a lot of years I was the cutest littlest person in the family. Three years. And then my little brother came along and pretty soon he took my place as the cutest, youngest person in the family and the one that was getting the most attention because he needed it because he was younger than I was.
And I distinctly remember a moment in my life we were doing some kind of family activity and I opted to hide myself away and kind of mope in a corner because I wanted my mom to come and find me. And she did finally and asked what was wrong. And I said, well, I don't wanna come and be with all of you because you love my little brother more than you love me. And of course, I didn't say it that nicely because I was four or something. Right. But that was the gist of it. And of course she ended up comforting me, telling me that she loved me as much as she loved my little brother, and that was exactly what I wanted her to do, right? But anyway, jealousy can certainly show up in sibling relationships, right? Jealousy can show up in our romantic partnership. Which I'll talk about a little bit more, And it can also even show up, you know, with friends and with our own children being jealous of our own children.
So this issue of jealousy of children was illustrated to me really recently. I went on a trip with some friends and we went to visit my friends family, her mother, and her siblings and her father, et cetera, and uh, at that time when we were visiting everybody, there was a lot of drama going on in her family, of people complaining about the behavior of the mother of the family, who was apparently jealous of her children, jealous when they would spend more time with each other than if they spent with her, and that was leading her to do, to have some bad behavior, some behavior that was a alienating different people in the family, and making them feel offended or even angry and upset. And I felt a lot of sympathy for this mother because I could understand where she was coming from. I myself have dealt with jealousy of my own children before. There have different, been different mentor figures that have come into their lives at different times that have really meant a lot to them and have, you know- deep down, I'm grateful to these mentor figures who really helped my children in key ways that I wasn't able to help them- but there've been times when my children would really pay a lot of attention to these second parents, and they would call them maybe even more than they would call me, or they would spend more time with them than they would spend with me. And I, and so I've struggled at times with jealousy of my own children, wanting their attention. And not gaining as much of it as I wish that I had.
Now, of course, jealousy with our romantic partner is probably the most common, the one that people most think of. And I have dealt with this as well, not so much because my husband gave me cause to, but more just because of my own issues. I feel like this started in my childhood. There was one particular member of my extended family who left his wife for another woman, and the children of this marriage talked to me and I really got a sense of how abandoned they felt, how anguished they felt about this whole happening. And I saw the suffering of, of the ex-wife who got left. And so early in my life, this kind of became salient in my experience as something that could happen, something terrible that I certainly didn't wanna have happen to me. And so there was kind of like an, an alarm set in my brain to watch out for this type of thing and make sure this didn't happen to me. Unfortunately, the way that this took shape in my brain, maybe partly because I have a tendency toward anxiety in all different areas, is that it tended to make me very anxious and jealous in my marriage, and this got worse in once I moved to Brazil. Now in my estimation, Brazilians are extremely beautiful people, and I moved to a part of Brazil, which is famous within Brazil for having unusually beautiful women. There's just a combination of genes in the gene pool here. There's a lot of Portuguese descendants and German and Italian, and African and indigenous, and somehow this mixture in the gene pool is especially successful. And these, they're just really beautiful people here, in my opinion, and also in the opinion of many people, uh, especially in Brazil, as I said. It kind of has this reputation throughout the country. So when I got to this place, all of a sudden I was surrounded by these unusually beautiful people. And I live right, right by the beach. So a lot of times these extremely beautiful people were always walking around in, in bikinis. This triggered what one, um, social psychologist Mark Leary calls my sociometer. So he talks about how we all have this sort of unconscious sociometer, which is this kind of like a thermometer of our status in our social group or how desirable we are within our social group. And so I felt like my sociometer really started to send off an alarm when all of a sudden I was moved to a different group where there I was just surrounded by incredibly beautiful people. And so feeling like my place in the social status went down and this really made my, my jealousy, my anxiety about fears for my romantic relationship get activated even more than they had ever been before. And the bad thing about jealousy is that it often triggers us, or it motivates us to behavior which is not helpful. Now, if you see it from an evolutionary standpoint, you can understand that in the animal world, jealousy, motivating, you know, aggressive type behaviors might be adaptive. For example, if you have a wolf pack and you have a couple of alpha males and one of the alpha males feels jealous of the other who's got a higher social status, that one might, they might end up fighting, right? The one that's jealous might end up challenging the other to a fight. Then depending on who wins, that winner would then be higher in the social hierarchy than the loser. And so they're able to establish an order by having this violent encounter. And you'll see the same kind of thing happen in chimpanzee groups. And you know, in birds, for example, when you see one bird who has a piece of food and another bird of the same species wants some of that food, they'll, they'll, I assume they feel jealous and they attack the other bird and fight over the food. And then depending on who wins, that person gets access to those resources. So that's how they determine who's going to get whatever is contested. And they determine this type of hierarchy through this aggressive type of response.
But unfortunately, in our human interactions, a lot of times this anxious aggression that jealousy triggers in us is not helpful. Because if what we want is more love and attention from people and relationships that we value, it doesn't help to be aggressive and anxious and clingy. This ends up just making the situation worse. So we need to find a way to process and deal with our jealousy in a way that is more productive or adaptive or healthy than what we naturally feel like we need to do. Now for me, this was a journey that I learned over, I would say decades, how to deal with this. And some of it I learned through just trial and error. Some of it I learned through therapy that I did Some of it I learned through a lot of the reading that I did on the subject and on related subjects. And just experience. So I'm gonna share with you kind of the steps that I learned to deal with this emotion when I feel, when I feel it, because sometimes it does still come up for me in different situations. It's a natural emotion. It comes up when we feel like something that we value is threatened. So anytime we feel that, we may feel a little twinge of jealousy. But if we don't want it to get out of hand and start really dominating our life, then we need to learn how to process it better.
And the first step that I found in this process of being able to regulate my jealousy was, first of all, to be curious about it rather than being, uh, criticizing it. Because I found that if I, if I reacted to my jealousy in a way that shook my finger at it and said, oh my goodness, you shouldn't be jealous, this is shameful of you to feel jealous, then I would simply feel more anxious. I would feel anxiety that I was feeling jealousy, and that wouldn't turn off the jealousy. It would just add anxiety on top of it. And the jealousy in and of itself was already giving me anxiety. So I would turn into this ball of anxiety. So what I found was that I needed to, instead of criticizing it and resisting it, I needed to be curious about it. First of all, I needed to acknowledge that it was a natural emotion that is something that mammals experience. And you can see it, as I said, illustrated in the animal world. And it helped me to start to think of my brain in the way that Richard Schwartz talks about our brains. He's a therapist as a psychologist and he has developed a system called Internal Family Systems, where you see your brain as made up of many different parts, almost like parts of a family . And so we need to learn to speak to these different emotions as if they're different parts of ourselves, right? And so he talks about taking an unpleasant emotion and being able to talk to it. And so I would do that in order to try and get curious about what it was that was under my emotion of jealousy. I would try and talk to my jealousy and, and ask it what it is that it's so afraid of? What is it that is bothering it so much? What is it that it feels threatened by? And asking these direct questions, sometimes that would help trigger some kind of an answer. Another way that I went about trying to uncover what it was that was beneath my jealousy, was doing what I call a brain dump, where I just take a scratch piece of paper that I'm going to throw away afterwards. It's not, it's not going to have any permanent registration of what I write down, but it, it's just a chance for me to write down everything that I feel about a certain topic. So everything that comes to my mind in relation to this jealousy, I just start writing stream of consciousness. No judgment. And the no judgment part is the most important part because a lot of times these unconscious parts of ourselves, these more primitive parts, our of ourselves that are triggering these emotions that we don't feel like we have control over and that are dominating, dominating our lives, but we can't seem to change them, it's because they are, they are in an unconscious part of our brain. And the reasons that these emotions are coming out are actually embarrassing for the conscious part of our brain. So when you do this brain dump and allow yourself just to write with no filter, with no judgment, it allows you to start to see what these different parts of yourself are thinking. What the appraisal is in this section of my brain that is generating this emotion that my conscious brain might be really embarrassed of. So, for example, when I would do these types of exercises, I discovered in the case of, you know, my romantic relationships and also with my children, that sometimes what it was that I was afraid of was losing access to this relationship that was so valuable to me and having the time and attention that I so enjoyed with this person, the closeness with this person. Sometimes that was a part of what it was I was afraid of. But additionally, there was also other things that I uncovered that were, you know, what I would consider even more primitive, which were fear of, of being abandoned basically, right? During this time that I felt the most jealousy of my spouse, this was also a time when my children were little and I wasn't doing a lot of outside work. My husband was really doing most of the, the income- producing work that was bringing income into our family. And I was doing work at home, but it wasn't paid. And so this fear of abandonment that I uncovered underneath my jealousy had to do with the fear of me not having my needs met. You know, if this provider were to abandon me, then I wouldn't have my basic needs met. And even the issue with my children, you know, the jealousy that I felt from time to time with my children, that has even sometimes been related to abandonment. When I've done these brain dumps and questioning of these parts of my brain, the way that Richards Schwartz recommends, I've found that there's a part of me that is projecting this current situation into the future and being afraid that in the future when I'm old and helpless and I can't really take care of myself, that I won't be able to rely on my children to take care of me because they won't value me the way that they should, because they're giving more value to other people. And so it's even embarrassing to say it out loud. It's embarrassing to acknowledge that these parts of our brain, of our unconscious brain that produce these disturbing emotions that we have a hard time getting a handle on a lot of times, the appraisal or the, the story that that part of our brain is telling that's producing the emotion, a lot of times that story is embarrassing and that's why we have trouble actually finding out what it is sometimes. So that's why it's helpful to do these techniques because they can help you to discover the story while not criticizing it and allowing that part of ourselves to feel safe, to feel like it's okay to say whatev, whatever it is that's troubling them, even if it's an embarrass, embarrassing thing. So that's the first step, is being able to understand it and be curious about what's underneath it, what are the fears that are behind it?
And then the second thing is, once you've discovered those underlying fears, to find different ways to treat them, to address them directly. So in the case, for example, of my fear of abandonment in my marriage, not feeling like I would have the resources that I needed to stay alive, right? Because I wasn't currently providing for myself monetarily. One way that I went about treating that fear was to find ways to provide for myself. And you know, one way to do that would be to go and actually get a job. I actually opted to get more qualifications for a job. So I went back to school. I finished my bachelor's degree, then I got a master's degree, then I got a doctoral degree. And these additional qualifications really helped that part of my brain that was feeling really insecure, to feel more confident, to feel like I had a lot of qualifications now and I was employable, and I would be okay even if somebody abandoned me. I would still have a way to support myself. Another thing that I've done is gone through, taking a notebook and listed all the reasons that I could think of why it would be possible and accessible and maybe even easy for me to get a job if I needed one right then, right during this time when I wasn't really doing a lot of outside work. And an additional thing that I did, you know, with trying to deal with this, the part of the fear that had to do with being abandoned and being alone was to consciously try and invest in additional relationships besides just the relationships of my, immediately, my immediate family. Because this helped calm that part of my brain that felt like I depended only on these, these few people in my immediate family, and helped me to realize that I had other relationships as well. Friends and people in various parts of the world that I had good relationships with, who would help me if I really needed it. So those are just some examples of how to go about trying to treat that underlying fear.
However, this isn't something that you can do and just wrap it up 100% and be done with it because there is no way to be completely safe from all risk when we're talking about relationships, right? Because relationships involve other people and we can't control other people's behavior. And so that means that we are in a sense, vulnerable. And so we need to get to the point where we feel okay with feeling that discomfort of being vulnerable, which is part of the package of having a relationship. 'Cause there's just no other way around it. Vulnerability comes with the territory. So there's this quote by Brene Brown from her book, Daring Greatly, which I really like, and it she says, " I define vulnerability as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. With that definition in mind, let's think about love. Waking up every day and loving someone who may or may not love us back, whose safety we can't ensure, who may stay in our lives or may leave without a moment's notice. Who may be loyal to the day they die or betray us tomorrow. That's vulnerability." So I think she really just captures the essence of what it means to be in a relationship. We can't control the other person, and it involves vulnerability. Love involves vulnerability because we can't control what the other person will do.
Now here's another quote by Brene Brown, which I think helps us to make the transition to the next step. And this quote is from her book called The Gifts of Imperfection. She says, " to love someone fiercely, to believe in something with your whole heart, to celebrate a fleeting moment in time, to fully engage in a life that doesn't come with guarantees, these are risks that involve vulnerability and often pain. But I'm learning that recognizing and leaning into the discomfort of vulnerability teaches us how to live with joy, gratitude, and grace." So the part I wanted to focus on is that last part of her quote where she talks about leaning in the choice, the lean into that vulnerability, and often pain. And that this is in a sense, a heroic act. This is where we can live with joy and gratitude and grace. Right?
So this bridges us into the last step that I wanted to talk about, which is trying to focus on what is in my power, right? We've already talked about the vulnerability of a situation where you don't control all the variables, and there's gonna be a lot of things that are not within your power. But if you can bring your focus back to where your power is, that can help to reduce that anxiety, right? So she talked about the choice of leaning into vulnerability and discomfort and living with joy, gratitude, and grace. What I like to do is to then ask myself, who is it that I want to be in this situation, regardless of what the other person is choosing or might choose in the future, who is it that I want to be? What kind of a partner do I want to be? What kind of a spouse do I want to be? What kind of a mother do I want to be? Right? And this is the first question that helps us to see our role in this scenario as a hero. Right? Telling our story as a hero's story. We talked last week about the importance of storytelling and how that helps us to order our anxiety and give meaning to our lives, a sense of control to our lives, right? And telling our story as a hero's story can be especially powerful. A hero story, what is it? It's, it's a formula that's used a lot in movies and books where you have a, an individual that is reluctantly forced to go on an unexpected journey that will give them a lot of adventure and danger. And this hero faces a lot of trials that tests her skills and her strength and her character. And then there's a climax at some point, right, in the story where this, the hero has to struggle to overcome a crisis. And prevailing in that struggle, the hero is able to discover her authentic self and her true purpose in life, and then return home changed, right? Changed for the better. So to be able to see the, the very vulnerability, the very risk that you face in a relationship, where you don't control all the variables, to see that as a hero's challenge, right? That something that can test your skills and your strength and your character, but you focus on how you want to overcome this crisis. How you want to prevail in your own moral universe, right? How you want to be your authentic self and live your true purpose? What, what kind of a person do I want to be, given these circumstances? So asking this question really helps me to focus back on where I have control and when I can focus on what's within my power, then I start to feel like I'm in that challenge response again. The challenge response is where you feel like the demands are not too much for you. You have the resources to meet what's before you, right? Because I've shrunk the demands. The demands are not something way beyond my control that I, I don't have power over. Instead, I am focusing on the sphere where I actually have control and I can think about who I wanna be. So these are the different steps that I go through, right? Understanding my jealousy, trying to treat my underlying fear that's behind it, trying to, um, be okay with vulnerable vulnerability and risk, right? Recognize that it's just part of the package. And then focusing on what's within my power. These things really help me to process through those emotions of jealousy so that I don't have to be overpowered by them and controlled by them, but instead I can regulate them and move on to emotions that I feel are more adaptive and productive and helpful in my life.
So I hope that's helpful to you. Now, don't forget now to stay tuned for our kindness narrative for today, a story that was shared by one of our listeners that will be just kind of your gratitude vitamin for the week. So go ahead and take it. Go ahead and listen. Thanks for joining me and see you next time.
This took place at a busy hour in the produce section of our local grocery store, and I like to take my time when I go grocery shopping, but on this day I was in a hurry.
I had a lot to do and I wanted to get everything done. But there was a woman, standing in front of the apple stand who was carefully picking through each apple one by one, and it was a stand where only one person could choose the apples at a time. And so I waited, but um, was aware of another gentleman who was actually ahead of me and was standing to my left just patiently waiting as well. And I guess in my, um, my hastiness, he could sense from just my body language that I was in a hurry and that I was, um, getting a little agitated because this woman was truly taking a long time. And, , I, I must have maybe taken a deep breath at, and he, he noticed. But, we stood there and, she finally finished and he looked up at me and smiled and just with a gentle gesture with his hand he motioned for me to go next. And I did. and um, after I gathered the apples and walked away, I realized what he had done. He was there first before me and he had let me go first, was considerate and unselfish and me and my impatience and thoughtlessness and hurrying to do the next thing had, been unkind.
But that experience has, has stayed with me over the months, and helped me to remember to slow down and to be aware of other people.