podcast

Hi everybody. Welcome to the podcast today. I am excited to have a special guest for you today, Dr. Gregory Hudnall, who is the founder of Hope Squad. The Hope Squad is a school-based program for suicide prevention, and the program is now in over 1400 schools worldwide because of how effective it has been. In our interview today, he's gonna talk about his school-based programs and why they work, and this is important because they help us to understand how to help with suicide prevention, what we can do to help prevent suicides, and he also will talk about different resources available for those who are struggling with suicidal thoughts. So without further ado, we'll move on now to my interview with Dr. Greg Hudnall.
Let me just start by by saying thank you so much for being willing to talk to me today. And I just wondered if you could tell, start by telling people a little bit about, um, how it is that you became involved in suicide prevention. Why it became such a priority for you in your life?
Yeah, sure. So, um, I was a high school principal in provo Utah. And, um, during the late eighties, early nineties, unfortunately, the state of Utah was in the top 10 for youth suicides for ages 10 to 17. And I had lost of my students to suicide. And then one evening I was contacted by the Provo Police and they asked me to come and help identify the body of a 14-year-old who had taken his life. And, and then early on, um, when I had my first suicide and I reached out to the State Office of Education asking for help, they said, we don't know what to do. Good luck. And so because of that, I, I was lucky enough to, um, come into contact with Dr. Doug Gray, child Psychiatrist, university of Utah um, and the assistant director of wasatch Mental health, uh, Dorin Williams, and they became my mentors. And we um started a crisis team for schools. And so then it just took off. It was, I I can remember meeting with these families after their child had taken their life and the pain and the grief and the, it was just hard, very, very difficult. And so I, um, I made a vow. I was promoted to the district office and I made a vow. I remember sitting out in the, my old beat up Camry, just crying, sobbing um, because once again, I had lost a young person. So I made a vow that I would do everything I could to help save lives, prevent a suicide. So the next year I was promoted to the district office and we decided we'd start training adults. We trained about six or 7,000 parents because we figured parents know their kids better than anybody. So my district provost city school district, 16,000 students. We were averaging one to two suicides a year for over a dozen years. Our youngest was a fourth grader who took his life on campus. which was horrendous. I was involved in that one because no one knew what to do. And so, um. Uh, after we trained all of these parents, 'cause we thought parents could intervene better than anybody. We had a young man walk into Provo High School, take his watch off, give it to his best friend, and told his friend, I'm not gonna need this anymore. I want you to have it. And his friend said, oh, wait a minute. Your father gave that to you for He said, I know, but my family's gonna be better off without me. And then he went on to tell five other friends he was gonna take his life. Not one of those friends told an adult, and the next day he took his life. And so it really impacted our community. It took us who, six or seven months to get through it. And then after much soul searching, um, I decided that we really needed To focus on the young people instead of the parents. And so I reached out to Brigham Young University, Wasatch Mental Health, Intermountain Healthcare, and said, I, I need help. I'm in over my head. And so we spent three years working together. We'd meet every month. We had school counselors, psychologists, social workers, and just some of the most premier experts in mental health. And we looked at every model around the world and, uh, we looked at what the, um, Japan was doing, South Korea, Asian countries. Then we looked at the Pacific and then we, because we looked at Australia, New Zealand. And then we came back and looked at all the programs in, in Europe and then the United States, and we were very eclectic off each of those programs. And then, um, we kind of put our own model together. And The director, Dr. Ken Tuttle from Intermountain Healthcare said, Greg, let's, let's see if it works. So we looked at all of our schools in our district, and the school that was struggling the most was Timp View High School. And it's a school that more kids go on to Ivy League schools more successful. But what most people didn't know, 'cause we hid it so well, it was also the school with more threats, more attempts and more suicides than any other school.. Uh, and in fact, the previous three years, they had four suicides. So we thought, you know, if we're gonna do it, let's do it at ground zero. So 2100 students, we went through the amazing team we put together. Our school social workers kinda led the charge. We went through every single English class and we asked every young person, if you were struggling emotionally and needed to talk to someone, list the names of three of the peers that you would feel comfortable going to. And the same 40 names rose to the top out of 2100. So we pulled those 40 young people together. I started training them on warning signs, risk factors, self-care and boundaries, and it was so successful. We put it in every school, 13 elementary schools, three middle schools, three high schools, previous nine years, nine suicides. We went nine years without a suicide. The kids named it The Hope Squad. They came up with a name for it. And I think the thing that I'm the most proudest of is that this past August, Readers Digest, which you know is a great magazine, reader's Digest came out and did a story on Timp view and named Provo as the number one city to live in. Because Hope Squad had had at Timp View, had just reached their 22nd year without a suicide.
What conquest, that's amazing
22 years.
Yeah, it is. So now we're in 2100 schools
around the world.
So not just in the US, but in other places too.
We just hit South Korea and we're in negotiations with Switzerland and New Zealand and other places. Uh, we're trying to figure it out. How to make those work. I just got home from my mission for my church and um, I was asked to develop a Hope Squad at the University of, uh, BYU Hawaii. They, unfortunately had had some suicides and so they asked us to come over and help. now now we have a college university Hope Squad at BYU Hawaii with 54 students that speak 31 languages.
Wow. So, um, explain to me a little bit more about how the Hope Squad works, because, so what I'm, I'm getting the idea that there, you have this group of students that are nominated by the student body. Right ?
By their peers or, or, uh, at BYU Hawaii by their professors. And, um, they meet once, once a week. We have, we have Hope Squads down in Texas and here in Utah, Florida, Wisconsin, Ohio, that actually have classes. these are Hope squad classes under the direction of the school conseling department. They meet, you know, AB schedule every other day. They, they learn warning signs, risk factors, self-care boundaries. We do a lot of role playing because young people are not comfortable reaching out to their peers like in the past. Social media has kind of taken that for a turn. So we constantly practice on how to recognize warning signs, how to talk to peers. We practice self-care so that you know your boundaries. And when, because you're around depressed people, it's easy to be drug down. Um, and then we train them when to go to an adult so they know when to go to their advisor. Um, we have a Hope Week, so once a school year, they do a week long activities every day. And at the end of the week they have school assemblies. They have different things on mental wellness on Um, connectedness, different things that way. Kindness. And it, it's really a lot of fun.
lot of fun.
It sounds amazing. So, so you're training these students to be able to recognize the warning signs and the risk factors in other students so that they can then know how to talk to them to see if they're, if they really are at risk and, and then know how to help put them in touch with the right adults. Is that how it works?
Yeah, that what, what, what we learned early on, Adriana, is that, um. Seven outta 10 young people before they take their lives will tell a friend. And those friends will never go to an adult. And so we knew that we needed to create something that was gonna break that barrier. I was doing a youth conference years ago and um, about, I don't know, 10 minutes into it, this beautiful young lady, third row. 15, 16-year-old jumps up and says, we don't trust you, Dr. Hudnall. And I went, what? And she said, we don't trust you adults. And I said, pray, tell. She holds up her phone and she starts scrolling and shooting in Florida where number of kids were killed. Teacher arrested for sexually abusing a student. Clergy, arrested for sexually abusing a student. And then you add all the other things. And, and, and she said, um, we just don't trust adults. We know that we have to protect each other. And I've heard that a lot. I get called in to the emergency room, at least I did in the past. Uh, I oversaw a crisis team for the state of Utah. So we responded to 50 plus youth suicides. And when there was an attempt, many times the county sheriff. In fact, I just was talking to him on the phone. The county sheriff will reach out and say, can you come and help? And um, and then so I'll be in the emergency room with a young person who's tried to take their life. And, and, and one of the things I do is I, I always ask them, what, what could we have done differently as an adult. You know, and your parents, school, church, neighbors, friends, whatever it is, what could we have done differently, better, you know, whatever. And it's fascinating to listen to them that adults are seen as, and, and moms and dads we're all this way, but we tend to be the ones that preach. We tend to be the ones that try to protect and, and sometimes we're not really good listeners. And I think the, the biggest one that I've heard is we try to fix it because we don't want our kids in pain. So what we do is we, we jump in and be that helicopter that snowplow, whatever it is, parent that comes in and tries to fix everything so the child doesn't have to go through those experiences. But hundreds and hundreds of times these young people have said, I don't wanna be be fixed. I just wanna be heard. I just wanna be listened to.
And that's why they go to their peers.
Yeah, exactly. Because you think about it, Maslow says, families provide food, clothing, shelter, and safety. Society provides everything else. And when you think about the importance of peers, the importance of friends. So I grew up outside of Navu, Illinois, little farming community. My mom a four foot nine. Iowa Farm girl that um, would be fixing breakfast for us, six kids. If I came down the stairs in the ugliest red shirt and my mom were to say, Gregory, that is an ugly shirt, i'd wear it every day for a week just to push buttons. Right? 'cause that's what we kids are doing. We're constantly testing. But then if I were to walk out and get on the bus and sit with my best friend, Danny Sloan and Danny were to say, greg, that's an ugly shirt, i'd never wear wear it again. Because friends help us maneuver society. They help us understand balances, boundaries, rights and wrongs, and how do we fit in. And what's good, what's bad. And so having those close friends are so critical. And I think, uh, my own personal opinion, and I, there's a lot of research to back it up that social media has moved us away from that connectedness and those relationships. And, and so kids, kids are struggling. Parents are struggling. I just read a Newsweek article a little while ago. It could have been times, but I think it was Newsweek that said 70% of of the adults in the United States feel very lonely. If the adults are feeling lonely, think what kids are feeling.
you, you mentioned connectedness and. How, how that seems to be sort of a preventative factor, right? That part of what you
Yeah.
hope squads is you're training the kids to learn how to connect to their peers in ways that they're not,
Right.
aren't intuitive because you're, you, you reference the
Yeah.
media and whatnot. Um, what, what more can you say to us about connectedness? far as, I guess I'm thinking from the point of view of, of what we can do for those around us who might be suffering with these types of issues.
You know, um, I visited a Hope Squad. This has been a while, but I, they were meeting during lunchtime, which a lot of them do, and they just, kids brown bag it. So I walked into this room and this advisor. Had a, a picture of one of the students and she was showing it up on the wall and she said, okay, everybody, this is Sally. I want you to close your eyes and picture Sally in your mind. And, and then she went to the next one. This is Benny. This is Danny. And afterwards I walked up to her and I said. That's, that's not part of our curriculum. What are you doing? And she said, well, we had an attempt last month. Young person tried to take her life. And so the Hope Squad president and officers met with me and said, because we do know the number one reason young people take their lives is they feel all alone. So they feel disconnected, they feel invisible. They feel like no one not only understands them, but even knows that they exist. And so they, and in public school, we take pictures for yearbook in September, But we don't give yearbook out until May or june. But all of those pictures are available for teachers. So this Wise Hope Squad advisor got a list of all, got copies of the all the pictures and Hope Squad members were giving up two of their lunch times a week for the entire year to memorize the names of every one of their fellow students in that school. And so I, I, I was so impressed. So when I got done, I walked out and there was a hall monitor in the assistant principal. And I just grabbed him and asked him, are you noticing, is it, is this working? Is there a difference? And he said, you're not gonna believe this, but last week he goes, I know this Hope Squad member, 'cause he's on our basketball team, and he was coming down the hallway and he sees this girl. Doesn't have his, we wear our Hope squad shirts once a week, but he said wasn't in his Hope Squad shirt. And he passes this girl and he goes, Hey Sally, how are you? And she kinda looks at him like, who is that weirdo? But when she turns around and keeps going, she has a smile from ear to ear. Why? Because someone recognized who she was. I love that. In my, in my church here in, in Provo years ago, um, we were worried about the young people not being connected enough with the adults. So the. Church leaders had all of the parents of, um, secondary age. So, and I think we went down to sixth grade. Sixth grade through 12th grade. If you have a child, um, would you give, send a picture and a little paragraph of your child and we're gonna put together a church yearbook. So we put this yearbook together and then we met with all the adults and passed out these yearbooks and said, we want you to go through this and memorize all of these young people, but don't just memorize their names. Memorize something about them. So Within a few days, we got a call from one of the parents. She said, you're not gonna believe this. My daughter came home just frightened, and she said she was walking home and one of the elderly members of our ward came out and said, Cindy, how's the soccer team coming at provo High. Knew all of this stuff. She goes, mom, he's stalking me. I mean, it was hilarious, right? So we went, we went for three months and, and then we met again and talked about it and to a t Every one of those parents talked about how amazing it was that, everyone was knowing their children. So then we had adults, senior adults, one of the senior adults raised his hand. He was a World War II veteran, and he was in his late eighties and he raised his hand and he said. Can we do this with the seniors too? So we went through and met with 34 veterans, male and female that had served in World War ii, the Korean war, Vietnam,. And we drew up, we did a yearbook kind of thing, but we drew up, we went back and got a picture when they were in the military, when they were young. We brought all the youth together. And we showed, we started out, I'll never forget, we showed this picture of Jerry, who was my next door neighbor, 89 years old, uh, with a cane. But we showed a picture of him in a foxhole holding a machine gun. He's as buff as you can, most handsome guy you could imagine. And he was serving with president or, um, General Patton. And, um, we showed that picture and the cat calls went nuts. All the girls were whistling. Holy mackerel, who was that hunk? And then he comes out with his cane and everyone goes, what? And it was so fun. And I think the point out of all of this is we all are hurting and we all need to be connected. Mm-hmm. And the more that we can do it from birth to death, we've gotta find ways with less social media and more connectedness so that . That people are being heard, listened to, and, and, and being cared for.
cared about.
No, that's so powerful and I think it's so beautiful that you have, you have put these programs into practice and see how they affect people. So these are the types of things that you're doing in the role plays with the kids when you're teaching them how to connect with the other kids.
It is. That's what we practice. We, so we we practice. One of the themes of our Hope Squad is no one eats alone. So our state superintendent, she, she's not a Hope Squad fanatic. She thinks it's. Uh, too much pressure on kids. But it's fascinating because when you ask kids what the kids will say, no, the real pressure is when a friend comes to you and makes a comment that they're at the end of the rope, they want to die or whatever, and you don't know what to do. And then that night, the friend, that, that's what pressure is, cause they're being exposed to that. So Hope squad members say it's pressure, but it's pressuring me not to be a therapist, we don't train coun hope squad members to be counselors or therapists. We train them to be the eyes and ears and to be the friends. And, um, so we, we work on that and we practice it. And the no one eats alone. The students go out and at lunchtime, they try to find someone that is sitting by themselves to go sit by 'em, introduce themself or, or invite them to come to their table. And in southern Utah, our legislature was visiting some schools and they were up on top the second floor, looking down over the lunchroom. And um, our state superintendent goes, I am so impressed. Not one of these kids are eating alone. And the principal said, that's because our Hope Squad is so amazing. They make sure everyone has a friend to eat, to eat with. I love that. Right? I mean, that's, that's what these kids are, we're in a lot of, uh, private schools. Um, we're in Jesuit schools, in in Texas and Florida. We're in Catholic, Presbyterian, Baptist, Christian, uh, non-denominational. Um, it was interesting because I was interviewed by some, uh, very important Catholic leaders for United States, and they wanted to interview me about having a Hope Squad in a Catholic school coming from Utah. And so I got to visit with them and we talked and had a great discussion and, and, the leader said, if you were to narrow it down to one thing of, of what you're really trying to teach these young people, what would it be? And I said, we're really trying to teach them how to be friends because we've lost that. We've lost kids having that understanding of what what a friendship is because of, because of social media., it's, it's pulling us away.
away.
media is, has, has taken such a toll on mental health for all of the population, but I think especially for, for teenagers, and I think the statistics show that. But as you're describing this, this scene where. None, no kid is eating alone in the lunchroom. It, it sounds different than my high school, even though, though I went to high school before social media was a thing. Um, it
Right.
really teaching the kids to have a different mentality than, than kids typically do in high school. You know,
Yeah.
was, was kind of, it was kind of a dog eat dog world. It was, you know, competitive
Right,
um,
right.
I think it's really beautiful that you're giving these kids a sense of purpose that overrides those natural tendencies.
I was visiting a Hope Squad, and I wanna say I've been around the world, but it, um, I i, I think it was in New Orleans. And, um, there were about, I don't know, 50 or 60 Hope squad members, and I just asked him, no, no, it was Wisconsin. It was Wisconsin. And so I asked this one student who happened to be the Hope President. And he stood up and he was a big boy. He was on the football team. And he goes, you know, Dr. Hudnall, it's interesting because as I, and he went around and pointed out, introduced every student. This is Kalila. She plays, uh, in the orchestra. This is, uh, Sam, he's on the baseball team. You know, this is, you know, this is a nerd, but he's amazing. I mean, it was just so fun to, and and he said, I have to be honest with you, he pointed to one other student and he said. Out of all of these kids, this is the the one person that would've been my friend because we play football together. We interact together all the time. He said, but I've realized that my hope squad is my family. And I have so many amazing friends from so many different parts of the school that I would've never, ever had the opportunity before. And so he said, I'm learning, I've learned more about life in this setting than I ever have. And I was down in Texas, um, a couple years ago and they had an area HOPE squad conference with 2500 students. It was huge. And they, they had it at the baseball stadium and um, they brought in one of the top professional baseball players that I even got his autograph. I mean, this guy was pretty impressive. And so at lunch, I'm standing outside talking, um, with some superintendents and he goes, don't, don't look behind you, but there's a group of kids that are waiting in line to get your autograph. And I went, yeah, right. And I turned around and they were, and they were pulling their name tags out of their thing, and they were going, would you sign this for me? And I go, no, no. I said, wait a minute. And the, the baseball guy was just a little ways away with a line of kids. I said, you, you, you want his autograph, that's gonna be worth something someday. And one by one, the kids would get my autograph, give me a hug, and they would say, and these are juniors and seniors in high school. And they would say, um, this program has made such a difference to me. It is empowered me to not only understand myself. But understand my peers. It has empowered me to how to become someone more than what I thought I could be. Um, NBC Nightly News, Lester Holt, his team came out and interviewed, um, uh, some schools in our area, and the last school they were at was an elementary school. And there, there were about 40 elementary kids. Fourth, fifth, and sixth. Fourth, fifth and sixth. We, we, we trained on mental wellness, anti-bullying and resiliency. And, um, they interviewed them. And, and this little fourth grader, the reporter turned to her and, you know, what kind of experience? And she said, oh, two weeks ago, my best friend told me she was cutting herself. And, um, I knew that that was serious. I mean, here's this little ten year old. And she said, I knew I needed to do something. So I immediately went to my Hope Squad advisor, and they were able to get her help. So these stories were just coming out. And so afterwards there, there were f, four or five people with cameras, and they were loading up the cameras and I was sitting to the side waiting for it to be over, and the cameraman came over to me and he said, Dr. Hudnall, I, I just have to share this with you. He said, we, and, and the rest of the cameramen came with him, he said, we, we traveled the world. We've been in Afghanistan, Iraq, I mean, we've been in earthquakes. You name it, we've been there for. For the, uh, uh, Lester Holt's uh, show. And he said, never have I been around young people that understand mental health, mental illness, and are so mature to to talk to. He said, he it. said said, this is, this is phenomenal. I know, I just, it gave me the chills. It's not me. It's these amazing young people that are making a difference. That every day get outta bed and ask themselves, what can I do to make a difference? make a difference?
Yeah. And that's something that, that we've talked about a lot on our podcast is how having a sense of purpose really, is a buffer against all kinds of different stressors. And you can see that really happening with your kids. But I, um, I also thought it was interesting how in your book you talked about how your, find that the kids who have committed suicide, they're not necessarily, it's not necessarily that they didn't wanna live anymore, it's more that they were in pain and they didn't have
Yeah,
the proper coping mechanisms to deal with it, and they just wanted it to stop. And it sounds like what you're doing is you are spreading coping mechanisms.
that's really what, that's really what we're trying to do and, and it's been fascinating 'cause Brigham Young University in Provo went back to our first three years of Hope Squads back from 2004 oh five and oh six, and found these Hope Squad members around the world and asked them, you know, what, what what was it like then, and how has it helped you even now? And one by one, these individuals talked about how the skills that they got helped them in college, in marriage with employees, their peers, um, and their, and now their own families, and how that they were able to gain that skillset. Um, and, and we have Hope squad members that are dealing with their own mental illness challenges. Whether, and we all, we all struggle at one time or another. From anxiety to depression to whatever. And, and it's, it's just been amazing listening to these young people that, that are not afraid to to talk about it. It reduced by, not by, by talking about it, we reduced the stigma. we have a, we have a Pilot Hope Squad with the military Air Force base in Florida. We have, um, uh, a Pilot Hope Squad in York, Pennsylvania with an assisted living. Um, today, the, uh, the, Sheriff, Utah County Sheriff wants to pilot a Hope Squad in his jail so that we can see what we can do to work with his officers and and different things. Because it's, and because it's all about peer to peer.
peer
you're finding peers in each of these groups that it's, it's working the same way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we, we have a we have a couple of corporate hope squads. We have one down in Texas. We have one here in Utah where a trucking company, 200 truck drivers, two have had taken their life and. The, the CEO of the company had a daughter on the Hope Squad. And he said, why, why can't I have a Hope Squad? And so we said, uh, why not? So yeah, it's, it's, it's a different approach and we're learning as we go along, we, but. It's, it's, it's the connectedness that we've been missing in society. society
I'm curious about what other types of, I'm sure you, you teach them more things than you could tell me about, uh, in this in this interview, but what, are some of the top things that you do that you train them to do that help?
I think, I think some of the things that rise to the top automatically is we, we train them to recognize warning signs.
Okay.
You know, when someone talks about wanting to die. Someone feels like that they're end of their rope, um, to be able to have the courage to talk about it. So we role play pulling that person aside in a private moment. There's a great article in People Magazine, they came out and did a, uh, story. Uh, Johnny Dodds, who was one of their reporters, called me and said, we wanna do a story on the founder. He came out and I said, no, Johnny, you gotta, you gotta go to the school and talk to the kids. And he goes, yeah, but. And he goes, I just wanna interview you. So we spent a couple of hours and then it was lunch break and I said, let's go to lunch. And I had called ahead to Mountain View High School, and I said, I'm coming with a reporter and I want you to have the Hope Squad ready. And I want lunch. And so we get to the school and as I, we drive the 10 minutes and I'm pulling into the parking lot, he goes, wait a minute, this is a school. And I said, school lunches have gotten so much better. And he goes, Greg. And I said, no, no, come. So we get in there and we walk in and sit down in the con, the principal's conference room, here's all the Hope Squad members. And he said, Greg, I just, I said, just listen to their stories. And beautiful young lady who, um, her, student that was in the math class with her, I think he was president, student body president. She didn't, she knew him, but not that well, but she could tell there was something off. So she reached over and said, Hey, are you okay? And he said, yeah, fine. Leave me alone. So then she writes a little note to him, Hey, come on, let's talk. Rolls it up, hands it over to him and he just tears it up in front of her. And so then she waits till class is over and she walks out with him and puts her arm into his arm, pulls him off to the side, a little alcove with her classes, and she said, come on, something's going on. And he starts to tear up and he goes, um, my parents are, I think it was a divorce or something, and he said, I've decided to take my life and I have to do it before five o'clock before my mom gets home. It was planned just like that, for that courage to recognize those signs. We had a, another, uh, junior high kid that was getting bullied and, um, he came home from school when it, no one was home. Went into his dad's gun closet, pulled out a gun, loaded it, and his phone rang. So he picks up his phone and it's a Hope Squad member. Didn't know him very well, but he had saw that he had been bullied at school. And he said, I'm sorry that I wasn't able to get over there fast enough. I saw what happened. That was terrible what he did to you. A bunch of us are going to the mall. You wanna go to the mall with us? This kid goes, heck yeah. And he goes, okay, I'll meet you over there in ten minutes. Leaves everything on the counter, runs gets his, his shoes and his coat runs out and grabs his bike and dad comes home from work and here's this gun laying on the counter fully loaded. And so that's how we got the story that dad was able to tell us after his son got home, when he met with him and talke with him and so was able to get to the bottom of it. And so it's, it's, it's not only teaching, but it's practicing and role playing so that they feel comfortable. This, this generation of young people have lost connectedness. And so it's, it's training the role plays, it's, it's practicing the, the connectedness. And, and so when I visit a lot of Hope Squads. I love visiting, so I get invited to 'em. And so one of the first things I do is I have everybody stand up. And I have them pair up with someone that they haven't done a role play with yet. So they'll all, and then I, I say, well, you're gonna ask three questions. The first question to your peer is, how are you doing? And then you listen. Second question is, who are you? Who are you worried about? Could be themselves, could be a family member, could be a classmate, colleague, best friend or whatever. And then the third question is, how can I help you? How can I help you achieve what you want to achieve? But then the second part that we talk about is I, I, they decide who's person A and who's person B. Person A is gonna ask the questions. Person is gonna answer. I tell person A that you may not ask any questions until you're done. You have to focus on exactly what the person is saying, looking them in their eyes, and listening. And then I talk afterwards. How did that make you feel? Man, kids' hands will go uh, I did not like that because I, I wanted to ask all these questions. We are a generation of interrupt. We are a generation. When someone else is talking, we've already have outdone it, outdid it, or whatever. We want to tell our story instead of listening to that peer and, and what they're saying. I'm terrible that way. I interrupt all the time.
Oh, I think
the time and it's something, yeah, I'm right and it, but it's something we need to work on, especially when, and I train those young people and, and we do, we do a lot of training with adults. and one of the things that we train is that your child doesn't want to be fixed. They want to be heard. And so it, it, it takes courage and it takes calmness, but you need to be the safe person to listen.
Can you tell us some of those warning signs?
Yeah. So the, the number one warning sign is talking about wanting to die or, um. Looking it up. I had a a, I did a training, uh, about a week later I got a call from a parent. She said, Dr. Hudnall, my daughter was doing her homework on the computer. I decided just to get on to look, and she went on 17 sites on how to kill yourself without your parents finding out . And there are a million sites out there right? So sad. And so asking about it, talking about it, anything with that reference. Giving away prize possessions. The Young man that gave his watch away, we had a beautiful young lady that was a musician, always had a guitar on her back . She gave it away. Um, pulling away from . Family or close friends when they've always been close. And you see 'em pull away and they start to become depressed and very moody. Turning away from things that are important to them. And you'll see grades start to drop and they've been a and b students. So those are the things that, what I tell parents is when you start to see a change. In their behaviors. And when I talk about it, I remember one time I learned a lesson because I was. Talking to a group of middle school parents and everything I described middle school kids go through. Right? and I said, you, you have to look above and beyond their normal behaviors. So if they're always moody, then understand. You know, so a lot of times they'll grow out of it or know, or whatever. But you're looking for those things that are, um, taking them out of their norm of life. And when you start to see that, then it's, it's time to have those discussions. and I train parents to, you know, try to find that, you know, when, when there's dinner time and the, the, the one brother asked his brother to pass the salt, and he, he gets angry and throws it across the room. It's like, okay , something's going on . once you've calmed down and make sure your child is calmed down, then in that private moment it is, you know, David, can i, I've never seen you react to something like this. And so something's happening. Can, you help me understand? And then listening and then when they talk about it, or you know, they make a comment, I just wanna die. I just wish. Then it is, you know, that scares me. I have to be honest with you. I don't, I don't understand what you're going through, but I want you to know I'm. I'm here to help. Can we talk about it more? Would you be willing to talk to a professional therapist? I'll even go with You. Um, We can go together.
So it's interesting 'cause you say that we did you, you want to not make them feel like you're trying to fix them. You want to just listen. But at
Yeah.
you want to try and put them in contact with a professional because
Right.
you're not a professional.
But the Yeah, that's right. And the, and the, and the professional. Isn't going to try to fix them . The professional is gonna try to help them understand themselves and to gain skills that will help them deal with that pain, that, that challenge what whatever they're going through.
But for, for those people who are actually themselves struggling with that level of depression, where they're thinking about suicide, what, what counsel do you have for them?
Well, for the individual, for me, it's, it's always the attitude of don't give up. That, that we're gonna find something I, I cannot fix it. But I'm here to help you figure out, because there's, there, there is more in life than this. And so it's helping them find those options. There's a, you know, if nothing else, there is an amazing website and, um, it is um, uh, parent guidance.org. And, um, Adriana, it is, um, I had a, a very wealthy individual come to me and his daughter had been on the Hope Squad and he said, tell me how I can help you. And I said, I have so many parents out in rural areas. And they have nothing. And so they came up with this and it's a brilliant model. So there's four layers of it. It's free. The first two layers are free. You can go online, um, parent guidance.org. And um, you can ask a therapist a question. And now they have therapists from around the country. They have hundreds and hundreds of responses. And it will give you ideas and suggestions. I mean, I love it. Then the second tier is, is you can take a class for free. So there are mental health experts. I have a lesson. But they have people from Harvard, Yale, every, every expert around the country doing a presentation on, on, um, mental health, mental illness, for free. So you can take this 30 minute, 50 minute lesson for free and learn what the experts say, and you can do it without anybody knowing about it. So you can just put your headphones on and you know, wait till your kids go to bed and, and, do the class. And then the next two layers there is a cost. So I don't know the exact cost, but tier three is where you can join a support group. And you can go on the support group and and be with 10 other parents that are going through exactly what you're going through with your seventh grader or your it is. And it's, and it's a monthly fee, but you meet once a week with all these other parents, with a licensed therapist who is then giving you ideas and suggestions and other things. And then the fourth tier is a tier with professional therapists. So you can go online and look at, there are a hundred therapists and you, you can see which ones that you took a, a class from. Ooh, that, that lady would be amazing. I need her as a therapist. And then you sign up and, and you pay for that part. But it's, it's a brilliant program. Brilliant program and we're so Grateful for it. For it. Yeah,
the show notes.
yeah,
a really great
yeah,
So what,
yeah. It
really is.
are available for those who themselves are suffering with, with suicidal feelings?
You know, there, there are a lot of, uh, AFSP has a lot of good, um, sites or information on their website. Um, Jason Foundation has some really good information depending on what the challenges are. Um, you know, to be honest, you could type in ask, asking for help if I'm suicidal.
Or. You know, I always tell people 9 8 8. So that's the crisis line that you can call 24/7. And you can talk to someone, you can text. In the state of Utah, we're lucky because we have Safe UT and it's manned 24 7 by ex, by therapists. Um, talking if you are hurting, You know, right now, and you hear this podcast, please reach out to talk to someone. Um, because that's the most important thing you can do is share what you're going through. And, and professionals are by far the best because they can, they not only listen and understand , but they can help you with the next move, with the next thing that you can do to to help yourself.
yourself.
so if you're in the United States, you can dial 9, 8, 8, and that is a
9, 8, 8. If You're in the United states, that is the hot, the crisis line that you can call. If you're in Utah, it's SAFE UT, and you can call as a parent and say, I'm worried about my daughter. She said this tonight. And they will help you safe. Um, parent guidance.org. You can look up and look at options. We have on ours, hope for utah.com, so it's HOPE, the number four, utah.com. We have family home lessons on mental health, how to talk to, um, a, a fellow family member about mental health issues or whatever. We have lessons for educators and um, uh, even information for students. And so all of that is on our website under resources. Hope squad.com has a lot of great information with resources too.
I'll link all of that up in the, in the
Great.
everyone can find that. Oh, I'm so impressed with the success that you've had with this program. I
thank you.
speaks for it above everything else, that it is effective and that is actually preventing terrible things from happening. many lives have been saved
Thank you.
and I think it's really great that you are trying to educate everyone about it. I mean, it's, it's, it's something we all need to know how
Yeah,
who's at risk and how to help them, and also to do we're struggling.
it, it really is our mantra that, that we, you know, while it takes an entire village to raise a child, we believe it takes an entire community to save one all hands on deck. Whether it's the bus driver, the coach, the, you know, the cashier. Every one of us have a chance to be kind to say hi, to recognize someone struggling and to ask if they're okay.
Yeah. And it really seems like the biggest tool that is making this work is the, is that connection
I.
Teaching people how to, how to reach
yeah,
uh, when they see someone struggling. And how to how to connect them to them in a way that is gonna be meaningful, as you said, not trying to fix it, but trying to just
yeah.
care.
I was getting off the plane one time and I had been bumped up to first class 'cause I fly so much. And the guy in front of me was yelling and screaming. I mean, and he scared all of us and they hadn't unlocked the door yet. I mean, he was angry and. So we come off the plane and he took his phone and threw it against the wall and was just yelling. And so I, I, all of us were just like, this guy's crazy. And we ran up the stairs to get around him and all of a sudden that spirit said to me, okay, Mr. Hope squad. What are you gonna do about this? And I went, I gotta get to this meeting. And so then I said, okay. And so I turned around and I'm coming back by all these people and the guy was picking up the pieces of his phone. He was a big guy. So I leaned over and I said, excuse me. And he stood up and. I'm about looking at his belt buckle and I said, um, are you okay? And he goes, no, I'm, no, I'm not okay. And he's screaming. And so I pull my phone out and I hold it over to him and I said, would you like to use my phone? And you could just see the anger kind of subside. And then I said, I'll let you have it if you promise not to throw it. And he starts to laugh and I laugh and he goes, yeah, I promise not to throw it. He dials steps off to the side, says a few things. Comes back and he goes, Hey man, thanks for sharing. I said, yeah, I hope okay. And I walked away. Did I save his life? Probably not. Did I make a difference? I don't know. But I sure felt better about myself willing to reach out and help someone that's struggling. And that's, I think that's what it's all about.
all about in life.
that's really what we are needing right now at this time when there's so many tensions and so many divisions
Yeah.
and, people feel really alone, as you said. Because of how isolated we are with our screens and social media. And
Yeah.
if we, if we can, if we can all work to, to reach out and connect to each other more, it just, it just undercuts so many of these mental health issues that we deal with
Yeah.
Yeah. Amen to that. That's exactly right.
But thank you so much for telling us more about how to deal with this issue, how to help other people who deal with this issue and, and most of all, for all of the work that you do. I am assuming on Hope Squad, there's also a place there where people can out how to start a hope squad in their community if there isn't one at the
Yeah, they can. Yep, they can go to the Hope Squad.com page. And, and we are, we are looking at international. And so yeah, we would love to have those conversations and thank you for having a podcast like this.
​

That's it for my interview with Dr. Greg Hudnall. Thanks for tuning in today and don't forget to join us next week. See you next time.