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Hi, everybody. Welcome back. I have been promising for some time now that we would have an episode where we would examine what nature does to our anxiety, how time in nature affects our wellbeing. Well, this is the episode where we're going to do that. And luckily we have expert help. We have a special guest interview with Dr. Christopher Minson. He is the Kenneth M and Kenda H singer endowed, professor of human physiology at the university of Oregon. He's been performing research on human adaptations to environmental extremes. Biomarkers of cardiovascular health and autonomic vascular regulation for over 24 years. At the university of Oregon, he has been consistently funded through the national institutes of health, the American heart association. And numerous other funding programs. Dr. Minson is co-director of the exercise and environmental physiology labs and a founder of the Bowerman sports science center. He is also the chief science officer and co-founder of the company nature quant, which is a technology company at the intersection of human health and the environment. He has studied in depth, the research that teaches us about how nature affects our wellbeing.

So that's why I'm really excited to present to you this interview with Dr. Christopher Minson.

Adriana: Well, thanks so much for being willing to talk to us today. And I, I'm really interested in your perspective because I know that you're an expert on, um, the effects of nature on our well being, and I want to specifically ask you about how nature, time in nature, affects anxiety and depression.

Chris: Great. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I'm happy to speak on that. I mean, um, interesting enough, I'm a physiologist more than a psychologist. I had my undergrad in psychology, but that didn't get me very far other than being a stepping stone to physiology. So I do look a lot at Uh, the physiological responses to environmental exposures and to natural environments, those kind of things. Um, and I, and I wear two hats. I'm a professor at University of Oregon as well as, as a of a company called NatureQuant, which we're kind of focused on these topics we're talking about today. yeah, so what's interesting to me right now is that the, the research. So much backs up, which makes sense to us.

Like it should be inherently obvious to us that nature is healthy, right? We have, since we evolved from, from living in oceans as single celled organisms, we've been exposed to the environment around us entirely. And so it makes sense that we are going to have to relate to our environment and be response to our environment and get benefits from our environment, um, in all its different forms. Um, and so to me, it's, it's always interesting when the research that's coming and there's literally hundreds and hundreds now of papers that are backing this up in various forms. That exposure to nature is very, very healthy for us, in both the psychological and mental health side of things and both in a physiological side as well, So, despite that, are still spending, you know. Um, 10 hours a day or more on screens. Children are spending, uh, 95, 96 percent of their time indoors. Um, so, so there's a, it's a problem. It's a disconnect, there's a logical side of it, which is nature's good for us. Nature’s the research, I've been a scientist for 12 years. 30 years now or something like that and there's something that seems so obvious and the research doesn't back it up This is one where the research clearly makes it makes it makes a point that that this is healthy for us a massive disconnect with what people are doing

Adriana: Yeah, and I'm wondering why it is that we're so unaware of the effects that nature has on us. I guess it doesn't really matter why. What matters is the, is the research that's telling us, right, that it's important. Um, so in our modern day environment, we're spending some, a lot of time on screens, like you mentioned, a lot of time inside. So what, what links do you see between the, the, the rising trends in anxiety in the Western world and reduced time spent in nature?

Chris: I do actually do think that the why is important still why, why we're having this, these disconnects. And, know, one thing that's difficult is humans have these very large brains, we're very complex creatures, um, but can also be easily manipulated to some degree, right? Meaning, um, you know, there are very smart people who are putting together programs and, and, uh, onto screens and other things to draw you in to create, keep you to that to keep you scrolling. Now I, I am an open book on most things and, uh, I will admit to getting on tech talk and actually sometimes really enjoying being on tech and it, there is something in there and others, social media aspects as well, that make you want to stay on it.

It's like you, you get a couple, you click something and something else pops up instantly, it's interesting tothere's people out there who have. For their jobs and for their own level of creativity have hacked our brains to keep us attentive to those things. Then the other social media side of this, right, which creates a lot of stress, especially in teenagers and, young individuals.

But I say it is all the way up to older individuals as well. So across the spectrum, the age spectrum, um, this is going on. Uh, people, you know, younger and younger are getting on screen. So, so there's all this, there's competing, uh, aspects to it for sure. Um, the other aspect of it I think is that, you know, historically our green spaces have been decreasing you know, as more and more people move to cities and, and, and, uh, more and more cities want to have, uh, dense housing and, um, other things that are really important for us as a species at the population we have to survive. We have to kind of have these things, but it's, um, but it's difficult because we're removing ourselves away from nature, right?

And there's a lot of kids who don't get exposed to nature. Um, Um, or even maybe a city park on occasion, but maybe once in a while. Um, you know, a lot of, uh, uh, playgrounds in schools don't have really green spaces anymore. Um, because they're hard to maintain, they're expensive to maintain. So we've been, you know, we're just living in places where there's less access to it. Um, so there's a lot of reasons why I think we're, why we're not getting into nature and it's, and it's, uh, it's, it's clearly a you know, and, and, um, again, knowing that something is, is good for us and healthy for us is, is, is very, very important, know about healthy eating habits, you know, about self healthy sleep habits.

We know, you know, a lot of these things. Um, and yet people oftentimes don't follow them because it's difficult. We are busy. We get caught up in things, you know, um, it's, it's just, it's just challenging. I have two kids myself and it's. It's in, I know when my kids were young, boy, they, they dominated. My, my wife's and my life, my time just because so much going on. So it's difficult to get, it's difficult to try and try and, uh, make the time, but it's time that we need to do that. And even small breaks into nature can make a very big difference, right? Um, there's been some studies like, um, you know, if you want to talk about productivity, for instance, at work a major one. There's a very simple study done on a bunch of Australian students where they were basically had to do this kind of mindless task of whenever something flashes on the screen, they'd push a button. Um, then they count how many times they make mistakes. And, um, so it's kind of a mindless task, kind of boring.

But it's work. It was something they were trying to. And then, you know, those who can look, who take 40 second breaks every now and then, looked at a flowering roof, you know, roof with flowers on it, versus a concrete roof, um, over time made a lot fewer errors, right? And so, so there's this, um, the simple, the simple breaks like that, you know, some things that we're really, Um, I'm trying to get everybody to get 20 minutes into some kind of explicit nature every day if they can at least four or five times a week if possible. Um, cause if you go into a natural environment, especially a park or a green space, you know, if you are a tree line streets better than being on a street, no sure. There's some benefits that trees have for us both visually, um, autistically, uh, audially, um, as well as, um, uh, the smells and other. Um, but, uh, Uh, you know, if you can get, if you can just go outside for, uh, in some kind of hopefully explicit nature, a park or something like that, and you don't have your cell phone with you, right? If you bring your cell phone with you, these benefits oftentimes are not seen. Um, or at least not looking at it, have it in your pocket, have it turned off. Um, within 20 minutes, your blood pressure drops,

Adriana: Wow.

Chris: Your stress hormone drops, right? Your levels of cortisol drops. Um, your other stress hormones, epinephrine and norepinephrine, Um, you know, all these things happen relatively quickly and that can really, um, reset us to some degree and, and, uh, both physiologically and mentally, and I'm, you know, I'm a, I'm a physiologist, but I, I am such a huge believer that there's this brain body connection.
You can't separate the two. Our, our brain or brain can impact our body. And so, um, can talk more in detail on these things, but there's, you know, there's, there's a small things we can do per day, even if you can't. get out into nature on a regular basis.

Adriana: Yeah, so you're talking about an immediate, almost immediate effect. 20 minutes and already the cortisol levels drop. Do you know, um, long term, for example, for the rest of the day, you know, does it, does it endure? You know, is it something that we just have to repeat all the time? Does it, does it create lasting change of any kind? What, what are the effects there?

Chris: Sure, it's interesting, it's always a really good and important question, right? Because it's like, I'm an exercise physiologist, I do a lot of heat therapy and cold therapies for people as well as nature exposures. And I always kinda get the questions like, well, if I do it once, how long does it last? Right? And it's a great question, and it's a fair question. And I wish you could say, Oh, you just do it once and you're done. You're good. High five. your day. You're done for the week. Done for the month. Um, unfortunately more is better. Right? And, and, uh, to an extent. Um, and so, uh, definitely, you know, if you have, there's been studies have shown that if you, if you, um, go outside for a 20 minute walk in a natural area, uh, you Versus you got a 20 minute walk in a, um, it's done as people with major depressive disorder and other things, um, who are, uh, institutionalized and then they can go one direction and in a very green area versus go out in a, in a, an urban walk. So they're both walking same distance, same everything, but seeing very different experiences in those cases. Um, you know, they're throughout the day, the rest of the day, and even into, into the, to the following week, if they're doing this, um, they have, uh, increased, uh, levels of, uh, report happiness, their positive affect is higher. Um, they're, they're, they're, um, symptoms and signs of depression decrease, right? So, so there's definitely a lasting benefit that goes throughout the day and, and it can actually last a bit longer than that. Um, but then of course, you know, if you don't do it again, then, then you can be right back in the same pattern you've been before and repeating that pattern. And so, um, so there's, there's, that's kind of all I call it kind of the acute effects, right? That you get exposed and then how long does it last throughout that day, maybe for another a couple of days. Um, but then there's a chronic. exposure. And there's been a lot of studies also about where you live and how, how, uh, how much of a green space or people are also looking at blue spaces, which are include, um, access to oceans and rivers and other things, um, which are, are very important and healthy as well. Um, but, but most of the work's been on, on green spaces. Um, and shown that, um, even when they, researchers do these big, you know, studies, um, whether it's epidemiological or whether it's, it's, uh, health outcome data in, on thousands and thousands of patients, um, where you live makes a very big difference. They try and take into consideration, uh, racial and ethnic and socioeconomic and, um, other types of, of impact factors that may play into this traditional, people live in traditionally redlined areas that have been marginalized for, for, for years and, uh, lack of investments and those kinds of things. All those. Um, And when you do these kind of very large studies and very complex studies, um, the thing that rings out very clearly is that those who live in greener spaces have more access to green space around their home, um, have better health, right? They've got, uh, less rates of, um, uh, a depression, uh, lower rates of, uh, early mortality and cardiovascular disease and diabetes, all these kinds of things, you know, like there's a, you know, a children, a study in children, for instance, and, um, those who In consideration as much as they can, as these other co-founders potentially. They found that the over time these children had, who lived in greener areas, had had much lower risk of many psychiatric disorders, uh, depression, mood disorders, uh, schizophrenia, eating disorders, uh, substance abuse, all these things were, were lower in these kids. And argument can be made that, well, in a nice neighborhood, it's greener, it's prettier, it's, it's, it's probably wealthier. There's other aspects to it, but they tried to take in consideration. All those type of things. And, and, uh, the, the nature is still, um, a big factor in that.

Adriana: Wow. So, what have you specifically seen since my listeners are concerned mostly about anxiety, you mentioned stress reduction, immediate stress reduction, but have you seen other things that That, that specifically show some kind of effect on anxiety levels in people?

Chris: Yeah. Um, so I, within the research, there's, there's quite a bit of things. Um, again, I'm not being a, uh, a legit psychologist by any means. Um, I, I have looked more at, at rates of depression and mood disorder numbers of major depressive, uh, uh, uh, responses, those kind of things. Um, uh, but again, I haven't looked at that research myself.

I mean, I haven't done that research myself, but, uh, I've been, been peripherally involved in some of the studies and certainly pay attention to it. So, um, uh, you know, I can't speak to, um, uh, Um, all the details about what's happening with, in, in the mental health side of things. Um, other than that, I, again, I, things that are reported are reports of happiness increase.

Um, subject to well being, um, measures of positive affect are higher. Um, it, being in nature can help. um, create positive social interactions as well. Um, especially if you're in a neighborhood and you get to know people and see people or you go with other people. Those kind of things can have, have very big effects. Um, there's other things that people have reported which include, um, which is decreased overall mental stress as a, as a general term. But also, um, I can't get to the root of this, but a sense of meaningfulness or purpose in their life.

Reports of these measurements increase people get more nature exposure, take time to be in nature, or again, living in greener areas that have better access.

Adriana: Interesting. And I'm wondering if part of this has to do with, you know, when people are, are outside often they're moving, they're exercising. Do you think that it's, it's partly just because it's in tandem with that or is there just an effect of just sitting out there in the, in a green space?

Chris: but I, you know, again, as a trained exercise physiologist, I always think, um, there's massive benefits to, to moving your body, getting it right. Um, but there's, you know, there's a, there's a practice that, uh, is in Japan and, and Japan did some very interesting studies, the country of Japan, the government of Japan. Um, and they started something called forest bathing or shinrin, shinrin yoku. Um, that really is the practice of just going out to a natural area. And, um, they did this, this early study where they created this place and encouraged people to do it. Um, and then the benefits were so profound that they started investing and making a Um, in every major city that they can to, to, to put these parks and other places where people can go and to make it part of their, their, their practice of their country, right? Of the populace. So now Shinrin yoku or forest bathing is, is very popular there. Very common there. And so, uh, So it's, um, uh, uh, just being in nature is, is, um, is, is, has an impact. Um, there's a, a, a psychologist here, a neuroscientist here at the University of Oregon named Richard Taylor. And he, um, he's looked at, uh, just fractal patterns.

So, you know, fractal patterns are, are repeating patterns, uh, in nature. So you think of a tree branch and how it splits and it, it, it, it follows patterns and nature is always in, in these repeating patterns. And, um, he's shown that, uh, That, that people have this, there's a more relaxed state just by seeing these, these, these fractal patterns.

And we don't really get that in built environments. It's really in, in natural environments where we you know, um, believe it or not, there's even people have had different screensavers, right? If you have a screensaver that has a green open space, people tend to be a little bit more productive. Um, hospitals have shown that if you have a view of nature from your hospital bed, the number of hospital beds, uh, hospital days, uh, stays are shorter, right? So, so there's. There's, you know, um, we can get into whether, you know, um, um, uh, these, these, you know, uh, immersive electronic worlds, the, the, the meta universe and those kind of things.
Is it possible we can get some benefits? You know, it's probably better than, than looking at, uh, uh, just, just being online in screens. Um, but there, in there, it shows some benefit on psychological profiles for people who are experiencing those. I would still argue. day of the week that being in actual nature is better because you're going to see true fractal patterns.

You're going to be to see true, um, uh, experiences. You can hearing the sounds, you know, it's all, it's all part of this. Uh, biophilia hypothesis, which is, you know, that humans were, we grew up in our, in our, natural environments and we seek out, uh, natural environments and, and social interactions in, in natural environments.

So it's all, it's all part of that, I think, and, and, um, yeah, so it's a, it's exciting time to be looking into this and I'm hoping that we can make a lot more impacts for

Adriana: Interesting. Yeah, we actually talked about Richard Taylor's research a little bit on a former episode. I found it was really interesting what he had found about the fractal patterns, but I it makes sense what you say, that it's even more impactful if you're actually out there with the full body experience, not just seeing fractal patterns, but you're hearing, you're smelling, you're feeling the breeze. All of these things probably have a impacts on our experience, I'm sure.

Chris: Sure. You know, as a, as a physiologist I uh, I have a lot of titles I guess can say, but I'm very much an environmental physiologist. So one of the things I study is, is making people uncomfortable. And um, you know, Michael Easter wrote a great book called, um, uh, the comfort crisis. And I think he's really onto something in the sense that, um, you know, if we're indoors all the time and we can perfectly control our environment and then we get into our cars and we control that environment and we go to work and that's a controlled environment. I never want to be hot and never want to be cold.

I don't want to feel a breeze in myself. I don't want it. Right. That, that, that's not how humans evolved, that's not how any animal evolved. Um, and so, uh, you know, a large part of what my research is, is we're, we're pushing people. We're making them hot, we're making them cold. And, um, people don't like it oftentimes.
People don't like to exercise because it's hard. I'm, I'm breathing hard, I'm sweating, and these kind of things. Um, but, but, um, those healthy stressors are very, very healthy for us, right? So going outside, being in nature, know, my, my wife, I think, you know, wants to, wants to leave me pretty much every multiple times every day where, you know, we'll go outside and it's, and it's, and we're going to go for a walk.

And, and she was grabbing us, but I was not, it's don't bring a sweater up in a sweater and she's outside and, and she'd be like, cause I'm kind of cold. And I'll say, well, you're not really cold. You just feel the cold, right? You're feeling the cold. Your body temperature hasn't dropped. It's not, you're not, you're not cold. cold. She's like, Oh my gosh, just stop it. Right. But I do believe, though, that having that sensation of being outside, feeling a little bit cold, feeling a little bit warm, um, you know, these are healthy things for us to do. And, and, uh, uh, then when you come back in and you, you're, you're back in your comfortable house and you're like, Oh, that was nice. It was outside. Right. I got that brisk feeling. Um, I think that plays into it as well. So, so the, the lived experience is important in my view.

Adriana: That's interesting because I think especially in places where the winters are kind of harsh, people have a tendency to not want to go outside during the winter, and then their mental health just kind of goes in a downward spiral. It's interesting to think that the, the, Uncomfortable experience of being outside in the cold has some health benefits in and of itself.

And, and makes me think of some other work by, by other psychologists that talk about when we constantly seek comfort, we become more sensitive to pain. And it, and it bothers us more. So when we, and conversely, if we're having uncomfortable experiences, then we're able to tolerate pain more. Kind of strange.

Chris: I agree a hundred percent, right? Completely, completely. You know, there's been studies on, on, uh, elite athletes, for instance, right? That their, um, tolerance to pain is much higher than, than the average person. Um, and then some people say, Oh, well, they were born that way, therefore they could push themselves and, but that's not being backed up by, by research and, and it's showing that, that as you train, as you get more exposure and the more you do it, the more you do it, the more you do it, um, it just becomes part of what you experience in your, your response to your mental side that responds to that discomfort changes. Um, your acceptance of that discomfort changes. And so, um, yeah, I 100 percent agree with you. And it's a, it's a, it's a very interesting component of the human condition.

Adriana: Yeah, and I think it has some bearing on anxiety because I think that those of us who are anxious were easily triggered by lots of different things. If we could get so that we weren't so easily triggered, then we would have a little bit more of an even keel experience. So this, this idea of the pain threshold, I think is, is pertinent to anxiety too.

Um, let's Let me ask you about, then you mentioned a little bit about getting small doses of nature. What, what dose should we be looking for? Is it just the more the better? Or do we just need to find an amount that we can somehow fit into our routine? What, what should we be aiming for?

Chris: Right. Yeah. So, you know, the, the, the, sum is, good for sure. Right. Um, there's been, um, you know, a couple of studies that have been done that have been Um, is it kind of like, of think of this a little bit as like the 10, 000 steps idea. Right. Um, this whole push that people say, Oh, if you get 10, 000 steps a day, that's what your target is.

You want to get the healthy, right? If you're doing 6, 000 steps a day, that's a heck of a lot better than doing 10 steps a day or a hundred steps a day, right? If you get 10, 000, I mean, boom, boom, I'm done 000 won't be better. Right. There's certainly, there's a point where too much is too much, of course, but, um, uh, there's been some early studies trying at, trying to get this for nature exposure. And the number that's kind of been thrown around is if you can get 120 uh, so essentially two hours per week, um, that's kind of like a place in which you, you kind of build up to that point. And at that point you see a little bit more of a, of a plateau in the benefits, if you will.

Again, this is very difficult to study and, and, um, I, I don't know if I'd fully agree with that, but, but you know, if people can try and get 120 minutes per week, um, that would be a great goal. If they're only getting 90. That's great. If it's getting 'em out more often, they would. That's great. And I, I, the idea again is to, to say, not just go outside and be like, oh, I'm outside.

You know, and you're surrounded by a concrete jungle. You're right outside a coffee shop. I mean, that's greater than being inside. Right. And being on screens for sure. But it's really, um, uh, uh, trying, trying to get out into a natural environment, trying to find a park nearby. Um, if you have a lovely backyard and it's gorgeous and you've got, you know, um, health benefits to that as well.

For sure. So, um. you know, the idea then is, is, is to try and get that, that, that explicit time in some kind of nature. There, there was, you know, there, there is, um, uh, uh, uh, neuroscientists. I believe she's at Northeastern university in the United States, Rachel Hopman, and she kind of came up with this. Nature for mental health approach, and she calls it the 25 three rule rule, and that that's, you know, that's the goal is to try and get into a natural environment for 20 minutes, at least three times a week. It's not quite getting you to the 120 minutes, but it's getting you at least 60 minutes and hopefully you can do more than that. That's a minimum. Um, and then, um, try and spend five hours, per month in a semi wild environment. So that means trying to get into more of a state park or somewhere that's just, uh, it's just more, uh, Or a very big city park can do it as well with a lot of nature around just kind of things.

But if you can get into kind of natural environment, a true natural wild environment, five hours per month and then try and get three days. It's a 25 three rule days per year. where you really go off grid, where you can shut down, at least get off your, you know, get completely away from social media and emails and, and work related things.

This is the idea that be camping or hiking somewhere, backpacking or, or those kinds of things. We don't bring your electronics with you. So, so I think, I think Dr. Hopkins, um, I, I, Are those the perfect numbers? Who knows, right? It's hard to know, but I think that she's, uh, right on the right track of, of trying to get people to think, all right, 20 minutes, at least three times a week could be a great baseline. You know, uh, uh, five hours per month, try and get somewhere into a, a, a more natural environment. And then, and then, um, three days per year, it's not a big ask, right? Try and get completely off grid and away from all, all those kinds of things. And that's a, a, a good pathway to mental health.

Adriana: So it sounds like she's also trying to help us recognize that there are There are, there's good, better, and best. There it's, it's good to be outside in a park. It's better to be outside in a wild environment. And it's best to be somewhere where you are away from civilization. You don't have your phone and you're fully immersed. Would you agree with that?
Chris: I would agree with that for sure yes, 100 %. And it will say that it's challenging depending on , where you live and, you know, what's your Um, access to nature is if you have to take buses, try and get out there versus you can drive out there with it or you have to, you know, or it's, you know, socioeconomic status has, has real big impacts on this.

And you know, the thing about wild nature, you know, I'm, I'm very, very comfortable being very far in the deep woods, in the mountains by myself because I grew up that way. My dad was in a, uh, cross country. climber and outdoor adventure. And so I just started that way from very young, but then you take kids who live in inner cities, right?

And then, and then everything, almost everything you see in the movies with nature, it's almost always going to be people go out in nature and something attacks them. So there's these fears that people have. And I think for the most part, you know, extreme unrealistic fears about, about wild nature and the wilderness and how scary it can be. Um, and so, uh, I think that there's programs that are trying to get inner city kids more so. Into, um, these, these natural environments and, and, and under and have fun in these areas and see that they're safe and those kind of things. Um, and so, uh, so it's easy for me to sit back and say, Oh, just go. Yeah. Go in the, go in the wilderness, no electronics for three days. You know, that's like my, it's my dream and where it's others, it's their, it's their, uh, it's their nightmare. So I think it's just a, there's a lot of reeducation we have to do to remind people that, that this is where we came from.

Adriana: I think that word re education is maybe really appropriate because I think that. Maybe those who have grown up in cities, like you've said, and haven't had a lot of contact with nature when they go out into a forest and there's bugs and, um, you just don't know what all these noises are. And, and, and it can, it can, it can feel triggering for people that have anxiety sometimes, you know, and maybe it's just a matter of getting used to it, knowing that it's good for us and that we should try and get used to it.

Chris: Absolutely. Yes. And, and knowing the strategies, right? I mean, I've been in, mean, I can't say I have a love of bugs. Um, I find them fascinating, but I will say that, boy, I have been in situations where I have been just pestered incessantly by biting flies and mosquitoes. I put myself in these kinds of positions and there are times where I am just going crazy.

But then, but then the thing is that, you know, you look back and you kind of laugh a little bit or you realize, okay, Okay. I should have been better prepared. There's ways to be in nature and, and not have the impacts of these so, so it's just a matter of getting that experience. And I do feel that, um, when we overcome something, right, that's such a good psychological boost for us, right?

That, that, okay, it wasn't exactly comfortable the whole time. That's fine. I was sleeping on the hard ground, or I was, you know, we had to go with all these black flies or mosquitoes or whatever they happened to be. Um, but we, but I, I got through it and, and, uh, that makes my having to respond to these 50 emails quite a bit easier. 'cause like I'm sitting here in a comfortable chair answering emails.

Adriana: Yeah, right.

Chris: there's something to that.

Adriana: Right, right. And increase productivity thereafter. So that's that's always good, right?

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And dealing with people, right. If, if you like, I know that, that, uh, um, I think a lot of, uh. Uh, mental health problems come for people when, from their social interactions or lack of social interactions and other things. And so, if you overcome challenges, then it's easier to, to, to work with or manage challenging people I think.

Adriana: Yeah. Well, I'd like to ask you a little bit about NatureQuant, which is a business that you started. Maybe you could tell us about what it is and what motivated you to start it. Give us, just give us some, some information about it.

Chris: Sure. Yeah. NatureQuant was really the brainchild, if you will, of our CEO, Jared Hanley. He's a kind of a data scientist, um, usually work in the financial world, but he's also, um, you know, he and I and our other co founder, Chris Bailey, who's our technology expert, um, uh, we're all outdoor adventurers and we were friends doing, you know, backcountry skiing and climbing and biking and other kinds of trips. And Jared was just at one point, you know, outside. Just feeling like I just feel so good when I'm outside. I feel so much more awake and so much more alert and so much more productive when I come back from being outside. Why is that? He started kind of looking into, into, um, uh, what's the, what is the science behind nature and health?

And he, You open this of things, Wow, there are tons of research on this. I hadn't heard about this, and we're outdoor people. You'd think we'd be aware of this stuff, right? Um, and so he approached myself as a physiologist, and he approached, uh, Chris Bailey who's, um, you know, he had, um, uh, tech, he worked in technology and tech companies for a very long time, had some big successes there, and so, um, you know, browsed the kind of three together and said, I got this vision of maybe using, using data and, uh, and trying to understand how it impacts our health.

And so So the North Star of our company really, um, is to try and get people to, uh, appreciate nature and value nature. And if we do that, then, um, and appreciate the, the, the, the health benefits of being in nature. And if we do that, then, then people are going to hopefully value it more when we can, when Uh, appreciate something that we're gonna invest in it more.

If you invest in it more, we can protect more areas and have more, uh, uh, investment in, in environmental, um, um, projects and other things to, to save the environment. And, you know, what's interesting for us is that people like to quantify things that it's, it's easier for us to, to have, have value in something if we quantify it.

So that's where Nature Quant came, came about. We're quantifying nature, so we really have two, two main tools. Um, we have a number, a slew of other. other products and other things, but the two, two ones we have are ones called nature score, which is where we've gone through and for all of North America, and we're working right now on Europe and, and, uh, be working on, uh, trying to get the whole world at some point, um, where we have. have used, uh, you know, 25, 30 different, uh, publicly available, generally publicly available, uh, data sources to try and quantify the health benefits of nature around any, um, if you're living in the, in, in North America right now, for instance, you can put any address in and, uh, into our, our, onto our website at naturequant. com. And then you can, um, put that in and that will give you your nature score for that area. That's taking a whole bunch of different factors, the green space, blue space, uh, uh, Uh, impervious surfaces like concrete surfaces, uh, air quality, uh, sound quality, um, all these kind of, many, many different factors, right, that, that we've, we've compiled for that location. And that gives, so a lot of scientists in research are now using this data, um, for their own research to see where people live, where they're spending time, um, those kind of things. Um, by way of example, Arbor Day Foundation, a very large, um, non profit here in the United States that, that works around the world really, but, um, is about, um, trying to plant more trees and, and they're using a lot of our tools to, uh, decide where should they plant trees, where, where can they have the biggest impact on people's health, especially if they look at the, you know, traditionally, uh, marginalized communities, um, where can they put the invest in, in planting trees, um, to have, have some impact of health. Um, the other product we have that is, is an, is a free app, um, again, working right now in North America, we're working to expand it, but it's basically, um, it runs in the background of your phone. You have to have the location data on their, uh, locations tracking on there. And it's just go about your day. It just, um, it's using our nature score.

Um, uh, platform to then, um, track you throughout the day and seeing how much nature exposure you're getting. This could be tree lined streets. Did you actually go into a, um, a park? And it quantifies again, um, how much nature time you got. So if you're in a, in a, in downtown city and you do a 20 minute walk and there's not many trees, there's, it's a pretty built environment, but you're outside at least, then in that 20 minute walk, you might get. six or seven minutes of nature dose, meaning you got some exposure to natures, but it wasn't 100%. But if you go to an actual city park, um, then for every 20 minutes, you're in that, in that, Park, you're getting 20 minutes of nature dose. So it's, um, uh, it's a way to people to quantify and, uh, people have been using it and find it really helpful in the sense like I'm perfect example.
I'm an outdoors person. I'm always trying to do things. There are times they go back. I'm like, let me check my nature dose and see where I am. And I realized that I have like gone almost a full week and I've got, you know, 30 minutes, 30, 40, nature. And that's, you know, and I'm like, that is crazy.

Right. So it's a good motivator for me. Like, Okay. This weekend, I've got to plan some time to be outside. I got to go to park. I've got to go for a little hike, something like that, because I know health benefits. I've seen it. I wear an aura ring on my finger that, um, the main reason why I wear this really is track my sleep. And I see that, um, these little things I do make a difference in my sleep. Not just the quality, uh, quantity, but the quality, the sleep architecture. If I'm not going outside much, um, and getting that nature exposure, then my sleep is disrupted. Even if I feel like I slept the same, I could see my sleep quality was way down. Um, so, so, uh, yeah, so we, we started those tools really just to try and get people to appreciate and understand and value nature, um, and also use it as a personal tool for themselves. Thanks.

Adriana: Yeah, and it seems like it's, it's good for helping people just be conscious of how much time they are or aren't spending outside. And also, I like, I like that you kind of have a goal for people, right? You kind of help them aim toward, uh, that healthy dose. At least the minimum, minimum healthy dose.

Chris: Aboslutely and people can set their own dose. Like I have mine set to 120 minutes, right? a lot of people set it for 60 or 90 minutes to try to and get that dose And again the trick is that know, 90 minutes is not 90 minutes, right? Unless you're in a you're in a, in a, in a very, uh, lush, uh, nature rich area. So it's, so getting 90 minutes is harder than just saying I was outside for 90 minutes. So, so, but yes, to, to your point, um, a hundred percent, our goal is to try and get And help people, give them the tools, help have, have them set these things that, that are backed up by research and science that say these are the healthy thresholds you want to get to and this is how you can posit the impact your life, um, through, through these.

And it is, we are fully aware that we're using technology and phones and other things. To try and get people to nature. There's we, we, we realize that's a very strange juxtaposition, I guess you can say, or contrast. Um, but we have to meet people where they are, right? People are going to have their phones.

We're going to have it on. And so the nice thing when we designed the app is that you can't be there and walking around in nature and going, Oh, my 18 minutes, 19 minutes, right? It won't. Um, until you get back to internet and, and you're out of the natural places, it's not going to calculate your score. So you can't.
So the idea is put your phone away, keep it away. Don't look at it. Nature's nature dose is not going to show you anything while you're there. So, so put it away. Um, and then, um, uh, yeah, and then, and then it will calculate it when you're, when you're back. So you get, you know, um, it updates it when it can. Um, and you know, we had talked a long time ago about saying, well, we should, we should really try and hack the phones where people then are checking emails. But that's getting a little too Big Brother creepy for our taste, for sure. So we didn't want to do that.

Adriana: Right. But I like how you're, I mean, I think the hardest thing for anyone when we're talking about changing behaviors is creating a new habit, right? And because our brains don't like to do something. That we're not used to doing because it takes more energy, but you've, with this app, it sounds like you've just made it really quantifiable.

First of all, it's easy for us to tell what our goal is and to track where we are in relation to that goal. And it doesn't sound overwhelmingly hard, you know, to get that amount of time. And it helps us to, I don't know, it just, it just gives us. That's that little step by step easy, easy road to getting a new habit.
That's what it seems like to me.

Chris: I agree completely. Absolutely. Right. And what I always want to tell people in, in, um, it's just like, you know, do as I say, not as I do type thing. I just want people to, to, to, to, to not beat themselves up and give themselves a hard time. If they don't make it, make that goal for a week, then if you don't, then you just take a mental note.

Okay. I didn't, I didn't get as much nature dose or time outside that I wanted to same with exercise. I, you know, everybody has these ups and downs, but I'm going to spend a little more time on it. I'll make a comment. conscious effort to make it happen. And like you said, that that is habit producing, especially when we feel their benefits to it and we're not beating ourselves up for not making these targets,
I said, I, I, I preach this to people. I preach to my kids and my family and everything else. then, um, then I don't live at myself really, really hard on myself. So, so all my, my own worst enemy. So, um, I, I, but I'm trying to be kinder, gentler to myself, um, as I've gotten older.

Adriana: Good well, I I'm glad that we can have this little time to tell people first of all about why It's so important that we spend more time in nature, but also to give them this tool that will help them to better understand to take that step toward getting more of it in their lives, because it's one thing to know that you need to do something.

It's another thing to have some kind of system in place that makes it easier. And so I think that both of these things have been really helpful for us. I just want to thank you for taking the time to explain the research to us a little bit and to share your products with us. Tell us, um, where we can find your, your app and, and your other products.

Chris: Sure. Again, unfortunately, our app is, is really, uh, available in North America right now through the, through the U. S., either the, the, the Apple app store or the Android app stores. So they're in both, both forms are there. So it should work from almost any phone. Um, and again, we're hoping we're, we're working on a project right now and hopefully from the next year or so we'll have, uh, all of, um, at least Western, if not most of Europe, um, uh, mapped and done.

And so we're also be hopefully getting the rest of the world as well. That's the, that's the plan. So, um, You can find, it's just called Nature Dose. So think about how much nature, uh, how you're dosing your nature, how much, how much, uh, are you, are you getting? Um, so the, you'll find Nature Dose very easily there.
And then if you wanna, you know, look at our website, we have a lot of information on there. We've got a lot of, uh, um, kinda keep it updated with, uh, research, recent research and publications and other things that we're working on. And that's just@ournaturequant.com. So again, quantifying nature nature quant.com. Um, you can find it in, in, in, in both places on the app as well as on the on line. You. You can put your address in and see what your nature score is for that area. Um, so they're, they're fun, they're fun tools and we think they're very important tools and, and we're hoping that, uh, uh, for greater, uh, uh, adoption of them by, by various groups, people.

Um, and, uh, uh, again, with that North Star of saying, well, people are going to, going to, uh, value nature and appreciate nature. They're going to protect nature and hopefully expose themselves and get the health benefits of nature.

Adriana: Great. Yeah, and we'll put links to those in the show notes as well. But thanks so much for taking the time to educate us a little bit more about the importance of time in nature.

Chris: My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on. It's really wonderful to speak with you.